89 replies to this topic

[cliophoto]

Hello

I getting ready to start something new and was wondering a couple of things.

First
Where do you get character names? Presently I use the Name Generator that comes with Scrivener (I know but that is all I use it for since finding the iPad version of Storyist). Is there any stand alone programs that one can get or failing that web sites?

Second
How much outlining does one need or should one do. The reason I ask this question is I have just about finished the NaNoWriMo novel and figured things out as I went along.
It worked but was stressful at times because I had no idea where I going or even when I had got there.
This is something I have been wondering about.

Phil

[Marguerite]

My characters usually arrive already named (and I find it difficult to change the names, even if I have a good reason). But there are some name-generator websites. Thoth lists them (maybe in the Writing Resources section), including in a fairly recent post.

On outlining, I think the answer is: exactly as much as you need. For some people (pantsers), that's none. For plotters, it's extensive. I'm somewhere in between: I like to have a general sense of where I'm going and a more detailed road map for the next couple of chapters, but when I sit down and write, half of that goes out the window. At that point, I go with the flow and see where it leads. If I like the results, I change the outline, and if I don't like them, I do my best to force the characters back into line (they don't always cooperate).
Good luck,
M

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 22 November 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

My characters usually arrive already named (and I find it difficult to change the names, even if I have a good reason) ...

It's the same with me, for the most part. I do tend to bland down a name if I come to find it too exotic. (No, "Thoth" isn't too exotic. I was considering "Scheherazade", which would have made for a more interesting avatar.)

Marguerite, on 22 November 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

...Thoth lists them (maybe in the Writing Resources section), including in a fairly recent post.

And here's a link. (Click there.)

Marguerite, on 22 November 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

On outlining, I think the answer is: exactly as much as you need....

Again, I agree with Lady M. How much outlining you need is very subjective. I do, however, tend to throw facts into my outline that I might never use. (E.g., left-handedness, exactly 481 freckles, can't stand loud music, etcetera.)

Unplanned character growth is an interesting phenomenon. When it happens I tend to take it as a sign that the story is moving in the right direction, if not exactly at the right pace.
-T

[Ironbark]

Character naming is a tricky business if credibility is an issue, I think. Peters behave in a certain way in many people's minds, and Jennifers very differently. Or not.

Then of course there are the era and location things. I'm more likely to find a Winifred in late 19th century England than in early 21st century Australia. Lachlan, as a character name I am currently toying with, is very representative of certain parts of Australian society around a certain decade. You would probably scarcely encounter it anywhere else in the world at that time.

I wonder whether name generation software can really match having a feel for your setting and/or trawling Wikipedia categories for an era and country, going through birth registry indexes, etc.

Re. outlining, my approach fits well with M's description. I make a list of key scenes and a basic narrative outline. I list the major themes or ideas. And perhaps I number the scenes to give myself an idea of the order they should at least occur in, even if they are not presented in that order in the story. Then I write and am mostly pleasantly surprised at how the story seems to really want to do those sorts of things. Like M's characters with their own personalities, my stories arrive and tell themselves. It is sometimes amazing how independently ingenious those stories are at presenting the ideas I had in mind in much more interlinked ways than I ever expected.

[Ironbark]

Thoth, on 22 November 2011 - 10:57 PM, said:

No, "Thoth" isn't too exotic. I was considering "Scheherazade", which would have made for a more interesting avatar.

I notice that the forum software theoretically allows for a change in display name, but the option is switched off for the Storyist forums. I can kind of understand why, but I wish it were not so: I regretted not using my own Scheherazade soon after introducing myself.

[Thoth]

pjc, on 22 November 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

... I regretted not using my own Scheherazade soon after introducing myself.

Can we get a taste?
-T

[Ironbark]

Thoth, on 22 November 2011 - 11:17 PM, said:

Can we get a taste?

Coat a tree stump with ferrous oxide and lick it on a scorching summer's day with a hot, dry wind.

Ironbark
It's a place in Australia, the hometown of one of Australia's best-loved comic ballad heros (from Banjo Paterson's "The Man from Ironbark"). And it's the surname I adopted for myself as a writer, creating my own semi-fictional character whose life I live out when I open (these days) Storyist.

[Ironbark]

So what about place names?

If I'm writing about a town of, say, 20,000 inhabitants or more then I'm not worried. But my current project, South and in the Shade, plays for about a third of the book in a small town of around 1,000 inhabitants. Aspects of the story make the geographical location of the town reasonably fixed, at least to within a 100 mile radius of a certain point, and considering the sparseness of Australia's population there will only be two or three real candidate towns if people who know the district try to pinpoint just where I mean. Nevertheless I plan to incorporate aspects of these and other settlements in the area, just to avoid anything that could be interpreted as libellous by present or past inhabitants. The whole "any resemblance is purely coincidental" spiel comes into play.

So I've been working lately on an alternative name for this town. With the benefit of having been raised in the district, I can tell what sounds believable as a place name, and I think I have just about got one that works now. I'll run it past a few people I know from that part of the country and see what they think. This has proven a lot more work than naming any characters to date.

[Thoth]

I find that big towns have to be completely fictional (Gothem City, Metropolis, etc.) but allude to real cities, or completely real (New York, Boston) with well-known characteristics of their own. With small towns you can be creative. (Thumpbottom, Gloryhole, Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu—oh wait, that last one is real. Actually, they're all real.) If you're stuck, get yourself a good atlas and browse. Then just combine names. (Danbury, Connecticut plus Hamden, Connecticut yields Hambury, Connecticut. Then Google Hambury, Connecticut, to see if it exists.) This usually works for me. And then there are towns with names of a certain feel: Doomed, PA, Scatterbrain, MA, Happytown, AK, etc.)

I'm sure you can think of other ways.
-T

[Ironbark]

I've looked at the most important European explorer of the district, after whom a nearby mountain is named, and the two reasons for European settlement in the area: gold mining and sheep grazing. This has given me one option.

The other name I am looking at is derived from the name of one of the Aboriginal clans in the region, with much the same sort of bastardising transliteration that was used for other localities in the district that took their names from native clans.

At the moment the explorer's name is working better with the idea of what the place is like.

You truly do have some great place names there. I enjoyed some of the names I found in Britain, including North Piddle and Lower Piddle; Sheepy Magna, Sheepy Parva and Sheepy Bottom (collectively referred to on motorway exit signage as "The Sheepys" (yes, with a 'y'); Great Snoring and Little Snoring; and many others.

Australia's most memorable names generally come from Aboriginal derivation. Some of them featured in the original (Australian) version of "I've been everywhere". Woodenbong is of course quite special. And the pronunciation of some of our place names is a whole nother story.

[Thoth]

pjc, on 22 November 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

Coat a tree stump with ferrous oxide and lick it on a scorching summer's day with a hot, dry wind.

Mine tastes more like cinnamon and olive oil on a mid-summer's night.

Hopeless romantic.
-Thoth

[Thoth]

pjc, on 23 November 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

You truly do have some great place names there. I enjoyed some of the names I found in Britain, including North Piddle and Lower Piddle; Sheepy Magna, Sheepy Parva and Sheepy Bottom (collectively referred to on motorway exit signage as "The Sheepys" (yes, with a 'y'); Great Snoring and Little Snoring; and many others.

pjc, on 23 November 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

Australia's most memorable names generally come from Aboriginal derivation. Some of them featured in the original (Australian) version of "I've been everywhere". Woodenbong is of course quite special. And the pronunciation of some of our place names is a whole nother story.

We have some of that here. Lots of Native American names with some unintentionally humorous translations.
-T

[whirlybird]

pjc, on 23 November 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

I've looked at the most important European explorer of the district, after whom a nearby mountain is named, and the two reasons for European settlement in the area: gold mining and sheep grazing. This has given me one option.

The other name I am looking at is derived from the name of one of the Aboriginal clans in the region, with much the same sort of bastardising transliteration that was used for other localities in the district that took their names from native clans.

At the moment the explorer's name is working better with the idea of what the place is like.

You truly do have some great place names there. I enjoyed some of the names I found in Britain, including North Piddle and Lower Piddle; Sheepy Magna, Sheepy Parva and Sheepy Bottom (collectively referred to on motorway exit signage as "The Sheepys" (yes, with a 'y'); Great Snoring and Little Snoring; and many others.

Australia's most memorable names generally come from Aboriginal derivation. Some of them featured in the original (Australian) version of "I've been everywhere". Woodenbong is of course quite special. And the pronunciation of some of our place names is a whole nother story.

Hi all. Sorry to cut into your conversation but here in PA we have some more 'interesting' names for real towns.

There's Intercourse, PA and Blue Balls, PA, and Virginville, Pa. And all of the them are not too far from me. Maybe I was better off living in NY?

-W

[Ironbark]

whirlybird, on 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

There's Intercourse, PA and Blue Balls, PA, and Virginville, Pa. And all of the them are not too far from me. Maybe I was better off living in NY?

They're not that polite in Upper Austria. (Warning: not for those offended by copulatory language)

[whirlybird]

pjc, on 23 November 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

They're not that polite in Upper Austria. (Warning: not for those offended by copulatory language)

Too funny, PJC.

And the poor town has to keep paying to replace their stolen signs which is the only crime reported in the area.

-W

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Hi all. Sorry to cut into your conversation but here in PA we have some more 'interesting' names for real towns.

Everyone should feel free to cut in.

whirlybird, on 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

There's Intercourse, PA and Blue Balls, PA, and Virginville, Pa. And all of the them are not too far from me. ...

I had actually heard about the first town, Whirly. Clearly it should merge with the second town in the name of peace. I imagine that the third town wants to keep to itself. Of course, if the first and third towns merged there would be an explosion resulting from both towns trying to maintain their identity. Who knows what would come of it?

whirlybird, on 23 November 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

... Maybe I was better off living in NY?

Well, that goes without saying. But if you're talking about the state, consider Looneyville, New York. It's a very popular American town name (e.g., Looneyville, Minnesota, Looneyville, Texas, Looneyville, West Virginia) but not as popular as Springfield. Oh, for pjc, I believe there is a Germany, Pennsylvania.

pjc, on 23 November 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

They're not that polite in Upper Austria. (Warning: not for those offended by copulatory language)

I'd like to know more about this Bavarian nobleman.
Does the famous English four-letter-word mean the same thing in German?

Curious,
-Thoth

[Ironbark]

Thoth, on 23 November 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

Does the famous English four-letter-word mean the same thing in German?

Curious,
-Thoth

No, but it is entering the vocabulary, mostly without the participle suffix. The German equivalent in a literal sense has an 'i' instead of a 'u'. That word is actually a surname here, too!

It is not uncommon to hear under-35s exclaim "oh f...", although to transliterate correctly in German, they are saying "oh fack". But they mean the former. And they have created the rather delightful German-English mishmash "abgefuckt" meaning "f..ed up". This is a linguistic oddity in the extreme, as the preposition "ab", used here as a prefix in a prepositional verb compound, is used in the context of retreating or withdrawing, something like "away", "down" or perhaps "off". Anyway, I doubt if discussions on German youth grammar are really you were looking for, Curious Thothezade, so I'll sign off.

Ironbark!

[Thoth]

pjc, on 24 November 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Anyway, I doubt if discussions on German youth grammar are really you were looking for... .

Actually, that was what I was looking for. And thank you. You solved a problem I was having with one of my characters.

But my curiosity arises again. What about "frak"? (Click there for Wikipedia entry.) Do they even broadcast Battlestar Galactica on German TV? I know it has gained in popularity since the re-make but has it truly gone international as an expletive.

pjc, on 24 November 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Ironbark!

Very dramatic. (And I like the hat.)

-Thoth! (Less dramatic.)

[whirlybird]

I like the hat too, jpc.

I think any combination of those three towns in PA would make for some interesting results but I think the area is too conservative to be able to handle the fallout.

I guess Looneyviille is all over the country so no one can claim it as just theirs.

Interesting information on the German progression of the f word.

-W

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 25 November 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

I think any combination of those three towns in PA would make for some interesting results but I think the area is too conservative to be able to handle the fallout.

Yet not too conservative to live in towns with such names. Go figure.

whirlybird, on 25 November 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

I guess Looneyviille is all over the country so no one can claim it as just theirs.

I suppose so. But you have to wonder whatever possessed all those people to name their towns Looneyviille. Could it have something to do with the bird?

whirlybird, on 25 November 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

Interesting information on the German progression of the f word.

You can't keep a good word down but oh how they try.
-T