40 replies to this topic

[Thoth]

Hi.
This post continues a thread started in Storyist for Mac>Feature Requests>Highlight and Comments Palette, that very much got off the topic of highlights and comments. (Sorry, all my fault, I'm sure. This happens to me a lot.)

whirlybird, on 17 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

I didn't realize the comics came about so long after the episode aired. Of course, I heard about Gene Roddenberry's death so long ago but somehow I assumed the comics would have come out way before the new millennium. I've never seen Eureka though my sister gave me the first seasons on DVD. She really likes the show a lot.

Your sister has good taste. The show is a well-written, funny science fiction adventure with a little romance thrown in for good measure.

whirlybird, on 17 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

I guess I would have figured that there would be Egyptian, Greek and Roman scholars but not Biblical ones involved. I can see how everyone, even within each group, would have their own interpretation. Must get very, very confusing. I love the space alien additions also. Are you, or have you, done your doctoral thesis on their genealogy?

You can probably see the relationship most plainly between the Classical Greek's Zeus and the Old Testament's Jehovah—hairy thunderers both. And you can't swing a cat (sorry Bastet*) in the Ancient World without hitting a virgin birth or a resurrection. People don't like to hear it but the story of Jesus was hardly a new one. It had a great many earlier parallels. And since you asked, I did my doctoral thesis in feedback loops for my CompSci PhD. (Shocking, I know. I've always been a science nerd but I'm into mythology too.)

whirlybird, on 17 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

Sounds like Zeus had a good reason for eating Metis but I would think he could have have come up with a better thought out plan to stop her. Having a fully formed body, sword and all, come bursting out of your head sounds awfully painful. Talking about a killer headache. I guess if she realized she might get too 'friendly' with her dad (ugh!) she wouldn't want to mess with coming out the lower region way. The Alien way would have been a cool way too but not having movies back then Athena didn't realize how cool.

On all points, agreed.

whirlybird, on 17 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

The Writer's Lounge sounds great although I didn't realize there was one. Lead on, Thoth.

Tah-dah! We're already here!

* Bastet's center of worship, Pî-beset (Pibeseth in Hebrew), is mentioned in Ezekiel 30:17.

[whirlybird]

Hi Thoth, I found the spot. Now we can chat away without being sent to the principal's office.

-whirlybird

(who was such a Miss Goodie-Two-Shoes that she was never in fear of being sent there)

[Thoth]

Steve is pretty tolerant of wild threads. It's quite rare that any of us get spanked for them. But there's no point in cluttering up a perfectly good feature request with a Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow").

Wait. I'm slipping into Latin. Has this thread run out of steam already?

-T

[Orren]

Speaking of Zeus, it's time for another comic related tangent!
(Whirlybird, my wife and I read comics, we have a podcast in which we discuss comics, and we are also creating comics)

So, for those who pay attention to such things, in September, DC Comics, the company that owns such iconic heroes as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and so on, streamlined and "relaunched" their entire line of superhero comics. The reduced the number of separate ongoing monthly comics they had to 52, in an initiative called the DC New 52.

Part of this initiative that was "controversial" in the comic community is that along with the streamlining of their books, came a streamlining of some characters' "continuity," or the backstory they had. To my mind, this is a Good Thing™. Some of these characters had 70 years worth of stories, and it was nearly impossible to simply pick up an issue and have a clue what was happening; it was like turning into a soap opera that was on episode 753; you were lost. And most superheroes had been killed and revived and changed universes so often you really needed a PhD in continuity to figure out what was going on.

One of the characters who's backstory was being changed was Wonder Woman. Her origin story had been told and retold in different versions but one thing has remained fairly consistent: since her inaugural appearance in 1940, Princess Diana never had a father—her mother Hippolyta, an Amazon on the all-women island of Themascyra, fashioned a baby out of clay, and Athena blessed her with life.

In the New 52, however, writer Brian Azzarello just let slip how he's going to be altering her origin: now she was born of an affair between Hippolyta and Zeus.

As one might imagine, this change is one that some people are not taking a shine to.

Just thought I'd share

Orren

[Thoth]

Orren, on 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

Speaking of Zeus, it's time for another comic related tangent!

Yay!

Orren, on 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

... Part of this initiative that was "controversial" in the comic community is that along with the streamlining of their books, came a streamlining of some characters' "continuity," or the backstory they had. To my mind, this is a Good Thing™. Some of these characters had 70 years worth of stories, and it was nearly impossible to simply pick up an issue and have a clue what was happening; it was like turning into a soap opera that was on episode 753; you were lost. And most superheroes had been killed and revived and changed universes so often you really needed a PhD in continuity to figure out what was going on.

Given enough time, it is ever thus with any mythology.

Orren, on 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

One of the characters who's backstory was being changed was Wonder Woman. Her origin story had been told and retold in different versions but one thing has remained fairly consistent: since her inaugural appearance in 1940, Princess Diana never had a father—her mother Hippolyta, an Amazon on the all-women island of Themascyra, fashioned a baby out of clay, and Athena blessed her with life.

Oh that Athena. BTW, I don't know what the fuss is about. I like the new WW costume and the new attitude. It's a Good Thing™.

Orren, on 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

In the New 52, however, writer Brian Azzarello just let slip how he's going to be altering her origin: now she was born of an affair between Hippolyta and Zeus.

Well, Zeus did get around. And Hippolyta was the classical Queen of the Amazons (instead of a crown she had a magic girdle given to her by her dad, Mars. Hercules stole it as one of his 10 trials to prove his humility).

Orren, on 18 October 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

Just thought I'd share

Thanks Orren. Somewhere some grad student is writing a thesis on Comics As The New Mythology. One more interpretation couldn't hurt.
-T

[whirlybird]

Hi Thoth and Orren,

It's nice and cozy here in our new playground. Great idea, Thoth. Oh, and wow, a PhD. I'm very impressed. I doesn't shock me at all that a scientist would be really into mythology. In a way, I think it's very natural. The only question is which character (if any) do you most resemble on The Big Bang Theory? In my mind you're none of them but that's just my guess.

I still haven't gotten a chance to watch Eureka but I'll have to get off my butt (or actually sit on it on the couch) and do it.

I'm a little surprised that the Greek's Zeus and the Old Testament's Jehovah is so similar. Who knew?

Orren, thanks for a link to your podcast and for adding another comic tangent. The more the merrier. I've never read many comics (except for some Archie comics as a kid) but I've always liked the versions of Superman, Batman and Spiderman that were available on TV and in movies. The DC new 52 sounds like a great idea for someone like me who would never be able to 'catch up' on a character's convoluted and lengthy backstory. But, I can also see where someone who has followed the stories all the way from the beginning would want things to remain the same. As for WW and her heritage, do many comics bring established mythology into the mix very often?

-Whirlybird

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

...Oh, and wow, a PhD. I'm very impressed. I doesn't shock me at all that a scientist would be really into mythology. In a way, I think it's very natural.

Tell that to my parents (RIP).

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The only question is which character (if any) do you most resemble on The Big Bang Theory? In my mind you're none of them but that's just my guess.

Leslie Winkle?

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

I still haven't gotten a chance to watch Eureka but I'll have to get off my butt (or actually sit on it on the couch) and do it.

Take your time. It's a treat you should savor.

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

I'm a little surprised that the Greek's Zeus and the Old Testament's Jehovah is so similar. Who knew?

Artists often get their inspirations from the same sources. "It's not plagiarism, it's homage!" - Forgot who said this.

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

...As for WW and her heritage, do many comics bring established mythology into the mix very often?

In the Marvel world, Thor comes immediately to mind. But he's Norse mythology, not Egyptian, Greek or Roman. Shazam gets his powers from a plethora of sources (Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury). And in one of the Catwoman films (the one with Halle Berry from 2004) Catwoman gets her powers from Bastet (Egyptian mythology). I'm sure there's more but these are the ones that come immediately to my mind. Perhaps Orren knows of more.
-T

[Orren]

Thoth, on 18 October 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

Oh that Athena. BTW, I don't know what the fuss is about. I like the new WW costume and the new attitude. It's a Good Thing™.

WW's costume has actually changed many times. Marsten (original creator) first had her in a short skirt. That gave way to shorts. Later the long shorts became bloomers, bikini shorts, and depending on the artist, more or less a thong. Of course it was totally absurd. The excuses for basically costuming WW as a stripper were that it gave her freedom of movement and she wasn't ashamed of her body, both are of course absurd. The male superheroes weren't ashamed and needed freedom of movement but they weren't tarted up. It was pure teenage boy fan service.

When Jim Lee changed it in 2010 to have pants I loved it! It looked modern and made sense. But others reacted badly against the change, including of all people Gloria Steinem. I think WW should be in pants.

In the New 52 reboot her costume was redesigned AGAIN. overall the new costume looks good, with the more garish gold replaced with silver, etc. but unfortunately the pants are gone, the victim of fan complaints. At least her current bottoms look more like short shorts and less like a bikini bottom.

Orren

[Orren]

whirlybird, on 19 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The Big Bang Theory?

Speaking of TBBT did you know that the actress Mayim Bialick who plays Amy Farah Fowler really does have a PhD in Neuroscience?

Quote

Orren, thanks for a link to your podcast and for adding another comic tangent. The more the merrier. I've never read many comics (except for some Archie comics as a kid) but I've always liked the versions of Superman, Batman and Spiderman that were available on TV and in movies.

You're welcome, and I certainly understand that. Especially back in the day, superhero comics really were written for young boys. I actually, collected comics, to the point of going to comic conventions back in the day they had maybe 2000 people total attending, and my buddy and I would set up a booth and buy and sell them. I stopped collecting when I left for college and didn't pick it up again until more than two decades later, when my wife talked me into going to comic con in San Diego and I fell in love all over again. With comics, that is; I was still in love with my wife.

Quote

The DC new 52 sounds like a great idea for someone like me who would never be able to 'catch up' on a character's convoluted and lengthy backstory. But, I can also see where someone who has followed the stories all the way from the beginning would want things to remain the same. As for WW and her heritage, do many comics bring established mythology into the mix very often?

I agree, I think the DC relaunch was a very good idea, and overall it was pretty well executed. As Thoth said, Marvel's co-opting of Thor as a superhero in the "Marvel Universe" is a perfect example. Other than Thor and Wonder Woman, mythological characters or ideas show up as backstory or side characters semi-often. Samson and Atlas show up in Superman. Egyptian mythology shows up in Hawkman. African mythology shows up in Animal Man. But I think these days there's more sci-fi influence than mythology.

Orren

[Thoth]

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

WW's costume has actually changed many times. Marsten (original creator) first had her in a short skirt. That gave way to shorts. Later the long shorts became bloomers, bikini shorts, and depending on the artist, more or less a thong. Of course it was totally absurd. The excuses for basically costuming WW as a stripper were that it gave her freedom of movement and she wasn't ashamed of her body, both are of course absurd. The male superheroes weren't ashamed and needed freedom of movement but they weren't tarted up. It was pure teenage boy fan service.

I had no idea her costume had changed so much! Thanks for the summary Orren. But, of course, we all know that teenage boys have an overwhelming interest in ... bloomers. (What were they thinking‽)

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

When Jim Lee changed it in 2010 to have pants I loved it! It looked modern and made sense. But others reacted badly against the change, including of all people Gloria Steinem. I think WW should be in pants.

Agreed! Skin tight, painted on, pants. Just like Superman's.

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

In the New 52 reboot her costume was redesigned AGAIN. overall the new costume looks good, with the more garish gold replaced with silver, etc. but unfortunately the pants are gone, the victim of fan complaints. At least her current bottoms look more like short shorts and less like a bikini bottom.

You know what? I did not know they had changed it again. I thought she was still in pants. I guess I'm overdue for a trip to my on-line comic store.

Fan boy,
-Thoth

[Thoth]

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

Speaking of TBBT did you know that the actress Mayim Bialick who plays Amy Farah Fowler really does have a PhD in Neuroscience?

I did not know that. So she's giving up neuroscience for acting? ***sigh***

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

... Especially back in the day, superhero comics really were written for young boys. I actually, collected comics, to the point of going to comic conventions back in the day they had maybe 2000 people total attending, and my buddy and I would set up a booth and buy and sell them. I stopped collecting when I left for college and didn't pick it up again until more than two decades later, when my wife talked me into going to comic con in San Diego and I fell in love all over again. With comics, that is; I was still in love with my wife.

I'm going to brag here a little. As a child I had bought an issue of Detective Comics #27 (May 1939) for a nickel, from another kid selling off his dad's old comic collection from a box on the street (there were no big comic book conventions back then). For those who don't know (but I'm sure you do, Orren) that was the first appearance of Batman in a comic. Decades later, in 1984, DC Comics decided to release Detective Comics #27a: The Collectors Edition, as a free giveaway. The reprint now sells for about $50 a shot. Decades after that "The New 52!" is releasing Detective Comics #1 as part of its 2011 reboot. Sometime in 2014 they'll be re-re-releasing Detective Comics #27. — "Everything old is new again." — Forgot the name of the play.

Orren, on 19 October 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

I agree, I think the DC relaunch was a very good idea, and overall it was pretty well executed. As Thoth said, Marvel's co-opting of Thor as a superhero in the "Marvel Universe" is a perfect example. Other than Thor and Wonder Woman, mythological characters or ideas show up as backstory or side characters semi-often. Samson and Atlas show up in Superman. Egyptian mythology shows up in Hawkman. African mythology shows up in Animal Man. But I think these days there's more sci-fi influence than mythology.

Just a side note: All mythologies suffer from, or are expanded by, reinterpretations. As with Hawkman (for example) some interpretations associate him with ancient Egypt and some with the planet Thanagar. That's the thing about stories: People are always putting their own spin on them. But if they didn't, we'd never even have Dracula, much less the hundreds of various vampire origins with their differing powers and vulnerabilities.

Bring on the reinterpretations!
-Thoth

[whirlybird]

Hi Thoth and Orren,

I love to read your posts. I get a mini-lesson in so many interesting subjects. My sister is also a wealth of knowledge in so many different subjects that all of our friends have chosen her as their lifeline if they were ever on that Millionaire show. I don't even know if it's still on but I'be definitely be using you guys as well.

My only knowledge of WW is from the TV show with Linda Carter. I don't mind if a female superhero has a sexy outfit especially since I have drooled over some of the depictions of Superman and some the other males. The issue I have (and this goes for the realistic-type shows on TV) is that a woman has to wear something that is practical also. High heeled boots/shoes, corsets that any well-endowed woman would be in fear that her 'assests' would fall out, etc just makes the job impossible. Oh, and I thought Superman wore tights and not 'painted on' pants.

As for the reinterpretations in the comic world, are there enough versions to enable the reader to pick and choose?

Wouldn't Mayim Bialick have given up acting to become a neuroscientist and then reverted back to an actor? After all, she was Blossom when she was a kid.

-Whirlybird

PS-Thoth, I hope your parents (may they rest in peace) were at least proud of your PhD, as well as so many other things. The PhD is a huge accomplishment.

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 20 October 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

I love to read your posts. I get a mini-lesson in so many interesting subjects. My sister is also a wealth of knowledge in so many different subjects that all of our friends have chosen her as their lifeline if they were ever on that Millionaire show. I don't even know if it's still on but I'be definitely be using you guys as well.

On behalf of Orren and myself, thank you. And our regards to your sister.

whirlybird, on 20 October 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

My only knowledge of WW is from the TV show with Linda Carter. I don't mind if a female superhero has a sexy outfit especially since I have drooled over some of the depictions of Superman and some the other males. The issue I have (and this goes for the realistic-type shows on TV) is that a woman has to wear something that is practical also. High heeled boots/shoes, corsets that any well-endowed woman would be in fear that her 'assests' would fall out, etc just makes the job impossible. Oh, and I thought Superman wore tights and not 'painted on' pants.

I've seen Superman and Batman and many other superhero costumes where every muscle rippled. They might as well have been wearing no costume at all. Of course some costumes are deliberately fetishized. Marvel/X-Men's the White Queen (Emma Frost) comes to mind. Her powers aren't physical. She's a telepath so mobility isn't an issue. So why does she dress in high-heeled boots, bikini underwear and a bustier corset? All in virgin white, of course. And what's with the wolf collar on the Black Queen?

whirlybird, on 20 October 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

As for the reinterpretations in the comic world, are there enough versions to enable the reader to pick and choose?

So many, Whirlybird, as to make one dizzy.

whirlybird, on 20 October 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

Wouldn't Mayim Bialick have given up acting to become a neuroscientist and then reverted back to an actor? After all, she was Blossom when she was a kid.

Now that you mention it, I finally do see the resemblance. But that doesn't explain why she went back to acting. Or maybe it does. There isn't a whole lot of fame and fortune in neuroscience. Some. But not a lot. Not like show business.

whirlybird, on 20 October 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

PS-Thoth, I hope your parents (may they rest in peace) were at least proud of your PhD, as well as so many other things. The PhD is a huge accomplishment.

They were and I like to think they still are. Thank you for your thoughts.
- Thoth

[whirlybird]

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our regards to your sister.

My sister says hi.

Quote

Marvel/X-Men's the White Queen (Emma Frost) comes to mind. Her powers aren't physical. She's a telepath so mobility isn't an issue. So why does she dress in high-heeled boots, bikini underwear and a bustier corset? All in virgin white, of course. And what's with the wolf collar on the Black Queen?

I've only seen the movie versions of the XMen/Wolverine and loved them. I'm not familiar with the White Queen but if she's telepathic like Xavier than shouldn't he be wearing something risqué too?

Quote

But that doesn't explain why she went back to acting.

It may depend on what she considers her passion. Is it acting or neuroscience? I wish I had the talent to have those options. I was a biology major but never did anything with it.

Quote

They were and I like to think they still are.

I'd say they still are.

-Whirlybird

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 21 October 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

I've only seen the movie versions of the XMen/Wolverine and loved them. I'm not familiar with the White Queen but if she's telepathic like Xavier than shouldn't he be wearing something risqué too?

Hmm. Professor X in a bustier corset? Kinky.

whirlybird, on 21 October 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

It may depend on what she considers her passion. Is it acting or neuroscience? I wish I had the talent to have those options. I was a biology major but never did anything with it.

When I was in grad school I knew a Renaissance Poetry major who went into glassblowing, and a computer science major who became a forest ranger. It's a long and winding road: You can never see where it will take you from where your are.

-T

[Marguerite]

whirlybird, on 21 October 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

MI've only seen the movie versions of the XMen/Wolverine and loved them.
-Whirlybird

Hugh Jackman What's not to love? Not exactly a Greek god, but he might as well be.

Don't worry, Thoth. It's a girl thing.

Whirly, congratulations on achieving your third pip. You are an advanced member now, and on your half-century, no less!
M

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 21 October 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

Hugh Jackman What's not to love? Not exactly a Greek god, but he might as well be.
Don't worry, Thoth. It's a girl thing.

Marguerite, on 21 October 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

Whirly, congratulations on achieving your third pip. You are an advanced member now, and on your half-century, no less!

Yes. Heartfelt congratulations General Whirlybird. (Most of our 654 registered forum members just lurk.
-T

[whirlybird]

Quote

quote name='Marguerite' post='14805' timestamp='1319234775']
Hugh Jackman What's not to love? Not exactly a Greek god, but he might as well be.

Don't worry, Thoth. It's a girl thing.

Whirly, congratulations on achieving your third pip. You are an advanced member now, and on your half-century, no less!

I have to agree about the heartthrob known as Hugh Jackman. The first performance I ever saw him in was XMen and he was and is a hottie. It's definitely a good thing, Thoth.
Thanks, M,I can't believe I'm an advance member. I am so honored although I still feel like a novice. Believe, I'm usually a lurker but because I've been using Storyist so much I had to chime in. You guys and your friendly and helpful posts made it easy.

Quote

You can never see where it will take you from where your are.

I went to school for Biology but left early to go into law enforcement (retired after 25 years, 5months)

-General Whirlybird

[whirlybird]

Quote

It's definitely a good thing, Thoth.

I meant 'girl' thing though it's also a good thing.

-Whirlybird

[Thoth]

whirlybird, on 23 October 2011 - 03:59 AM, said:

I meant 'girl' thing though it's also a good thing.

So, is it a "good girl" thing?
-T