21 replies to this topic

[nadinbrzezinski]

Over the years I have written both long form fiction, non fiction and from time to time short fiction. I know to some short is the step child of all forms.To others it is the highest form ever... I mean I can go on in a novel, but need to keep it well... short in a short. I also find it highly therapeutic when life kicks me in the gut. I wonder if any of you share in that experience. Right now working on a somewhat disjointed short, no, writing during a shiva does not lead to the most comprehensive of stories, After all a short ideally, should be written in a week at most, including notes, characters and all that. But writing a sentence here, a paragraph there on an IPOD... was the strangest thing evah.

Just sharing... what is your experience with shorts?

[Thoth]

I don't think I ever set out to write a short story (since school, that is) but I have had ideas kicking around in my head that became structurally truncated short stories that just went into my IDEAS folder. There are hundreds of beginnings, middles and ends, and assorted combinations of each, in there, waiting to be inflated, chiseled and otherwise massaged into a story.

And yes, I have on occasion written as catharsis (or vengeance therapy). That can be a lot of fun. On the non-fun side (speaking of shiva), after the funeral I wrote about the death of my father. On second reading I felt it sounded whiney, or would to anyone not going through the same thing. That's the problem with writing for catharsis: it's simply too personal for anyone else to truly get.

Which leaves me with the question I always ask whenever anyone brings up the topic of short stories, To your mind, just how long is a short story? At what point does a short story turn into a fully grown novel? Is there a real number? Fifty thousand words? At what point does a short story become merely an essay? One thousand words?

Just thinking thoughts about stuff.
- Thoth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Actually yes, there is a number that tells you what is what.

Short, short 1000 words or less

Short story 1000 all the way to 40K

Novella 40K to 60K or so

Novel, anything over that

Mind you commercially viable shorts are around 3K-5K words, but there is a market for short, shorts.

Oh and it goes without saying.. the numbers are arbitrary but isn't everything in life?

As to that story... something strange happened on the way to the forum. I finished editing, and it disappeared. So I will have to re-edit, I put it into manuscript on the IPAD... I am considering I-writer... and use the focused mode.

[Thoth]

nadinbrzezinski, on 25 June 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

Actually yes, there is a number that tells you what is what.
...
Oh and it goes without saying.. the numbers are arbitrary but isn't everything in life?

YMMV

nadinbrzezinski, on 25 June 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

As to that story... something strange happened on the way to the forum. I finished editing, and it disappeared. So I will have to re-edit, I put it into manuscript on the IPAD... I am considering I-writer... and use the focused mode.

So your edits disappeared, not the story. Whew!
Any idea why? Did you forget to Save?

Curious
-Thoth

[nadinbrzezinski]

I saved it... but it still went poof. It happens.. I got a copy ...

I was trying to change attributes for hanging indent.

[Thoth]

nadinbrzezinski, on 26 June 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

I saved it... but it still went poof. It happens.. I got a copy ...

It happens? It shouldn't.
The dog is not allowed to eat your homework.
Did you talk to someone about this?
-T

[nadinbrzezinski]

It happened this morning... and yes it happens. Computers are weird, no, not magical, not strange... but files are corrupted and lost at times... it happens with WORD... it happens, Why I have back ups in multiple places

[Thoth]

nadinbrzezinski, on 26 June 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

It happened this morning... and yes it happens. Computers are weird, no, not magical, not strange... but files are corrupted and lost at times... it happens with WORD... it happens, Why I have back ups in multiple places

Nadin, forgive me. Perhaps I phrased my response poorly. I wasn't doubting your story. As an early user of home computers (I had an Apple II in 1977, it had an audio cassette recorder for data storage and program loading) I am very well aware that sometimes the dog does eat your homework. What I was trying to say was simply that it shouldn't. Bad dogs should be disciplined, and if not by you then by the developer or manufacturer. File corruption should not simply be dismissed with a good natured, "that's life".

And, since you brought it up, Darth Processor (i.e., MS Word) is one of the most bug ridden word processors I have ever used. I've seen student project WPs with more integrity. But I suppose that once you dominate the market you can get sloppy and unresponsive. Let's hope Storyist never becomes quite that popular. (Sorry Steve.)

Let's hear it for backing up your work.
Yea!
-Thoth

[nadinbrzezinski]

Started with computers in 1985... with a 286 AT machine... kids a little more modern than Troth... it had a 3.5 Floppy, two of them... and 512 internal RAM alas no Hard Drive. Oh and it was as expensive as the gaming rig in the other room...

My first Word Processor no longer exits, the second was Word Perfect 5.1, it did... footnotes and line numbering AHHHH... advanced. (And better than Word, alas these days I got word on this machine for hubby... don't ask)

It is not a good natured, it just is. Hell, I have had e-mails go poof in the cloud. I took a networking class back in the dark ages... so I know why at times packets (technical name) go poof.

Why I back up relentlessly and why I need to do a full back up of THIS drive...

Lesson is back up, have multiple copies, and yes, as much as we would like them to be puurfect, things do happen... wanna hear the story of how manuscript corrupts xml files in the ipad version but not the ipod version? Yep found that out while down there.

I know, so copy and paste IS my friend. I know I should contact the dev, but I am just a tad lazy at times.

Speaking of short stories, there should be one in there by the way... the story of the missing packet, and alternate universes.

[Marguerite]

Well, just watch out for Documents to Go. I praised it elsewhere on the forums, and it was my go-to word processing app for a while on the iPad. Until I discovered more or less by accident that some juvenile developer had set up the app so that it transformed all your Word styles to variations on StinkerStyle. It's correctable if you copy the whole file except the last character and paste it into a new document, but honestly, who has time for such nonsense? And although it's merely irritating with my personal files, who wants to send work documents to colleagues and discover that they contain childish style names?! But despite numerous complaints from users and equally numerous updates, Dataviz can't be bothered to fix this particular problem. So forget 'em.

Nadin, condolences on your loss. Yes, back up, back up, back up! (I'm a PC veteran, too: 1981 IBM PC XT—10 MB hard drive! 640 KB RAM! And all for a mere $5,800 plus tax.)

As to your original question, I have occasionally attempted short stories and even took a short story writing workshop but have not actually produced anything worth reading and am not sure I really get the hang of what makes a good short story.

Or perhaps I'm just naturally verbose.
M

[Thoth]

While I don't write them I certainly read short stories. My favorites always end big and unexpected. ("So he drank the poison himself to save his hated ex-wife and their unborn son.")

Only naturally verbose people use the word "verbose".
-Thoth

[Marguerite]

Thoth, on 26 June 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

While I don't write them I certainly read short stories. My favorites always end big and unexpected. ("So he drank the poison himself to save his hated ex-wife and their unborn son.")

Same here. My favorites include a Hemingway 3-pager that relies on the difference between Fahrenheit and Centigrade and an 800-word (!) gem told by a paranoid dead guy describing his own "murder," who notices in the last sentence, right after we find out how he really died, how warm the surrounding environment has become. There was a good one in the last New Yorker but one: Jeffrey Eugenides, "Asleep in the Lord." Did you happen to read it?

Thoth, on 26 June 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

Only naturally verbose people use the word "verbose".
-Thoth

Guess that explains my defects as a short-story writer, then.
M

EDIT: Thoth was correct. Jeffrey, not John. That's what I get for relying on my memory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Got a collection of Stephen King's shorts, the other day... and my first printed credits were on a now defunk gaming magazine, called MFQ. Those shorts were oh 1500-2000 words long. They are not the best I have ever written but they taught me the writing is rewriting shtick and character development.

As to Apps, I can't wait for Steve to get Storyist over to the App Store for the IPAD... for the moment I have been using Pages.

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 26 June 2011 - 09:31 PM, said:

Same here. My favorites include a Hemingway 3-pager that relies on the difference between Fahrenheit and Centigrade and an 800-word (!) gem told by a paranoid dead guy describing his own "murder," who notices in the last sentence, right after we find out how he really died, how warm the surrounding environment has become.

Yep. That's exactly what I mean. But I was also surprised and delighted by a gift book (people give me books, especially when they're moving) called Furry! edited by Fred Patten. The title pretty much describes the theme of the collection. (One story, about an anthropomorphic "helper" dog, was particularly touching. I won't ruin it for you.)

Marguerite, on 26 June 2011 - 09:31 PM, said:

There was a good one in the last New Yorker but one: John Eugenides, "Asleep in the Lord." Did you happen to read it?

Wasn't that by Jeffrey Eugenides? (Man travels to Calcutta to work in Mother Teresa’s hospice.) This was less political than his usual stuff.

Struggling in the wee hours.
- Thoth

[Thoth]

nadinbrzezinski, on 27 June 2011 - 03:08 AM, said:

Got a collection of Stephen King's shorts, the other day...

I've always felt that the works of King, who was himself a self-taught writer, are excellent teaching material, no matter what his critics say.
-T

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes, ironically my english 101 teacher used king extensively. She didn't like him, but she thought he was good for craft.

[Thoth]

When I think of English 101 and short stories, my mind wanders to the acknowledged master of the craft, O. Henry (the literary pseudonym of William Sydney Porter). So, for the folks reading this thread, here's a link to ReadBookOnLine (and a collection of O. Henry's stories).
- Thoth

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well that particular short was not consistent... don't try writing a sentence here, a paragraph there. So back to the drawing board... which is not a biggie... also getting somewhat too philosophical, but the subject matter either is that, or horror.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well after printing the draft I wrote in Mexico City and going BLECH... I had fun rewriting this... can you say quantum mechanics| Science Fiction with elements of magic realism?

Technically it is not the first draft but still will treat this as draft zero. I am happy with this... and having the CONTINUITY to do this was good.

[Orren]

Just noticed this thread. I both love to read and write short stories (there's a free one called "Something To Eat" on my website, go ahead and download it if you like urban fantasy at http://www.orrenmert...mething-to-eat/ that's about 5000 words, I think).

I've always enjoyed them, they are like little vignettes that when well crafted really leave a great feeling, like a great snack. I also like them because they let me "play" in worlds I create. So for example for my novel The Deviant I created a vampire character and a mythology, and I can then explore it further with short stories without coming up with 100,000 words every time. I've currently sent off my second novel, a science fiction story, to be edited, and again created another reality/mythology, and short stories allow me to play in that world, with those characters.

From a "marketing" point of view, I think they're also both good promotion and a way to give something to readers. That's why my short story is free. Maybe people will like it enough to want to buy my novel. In that case, my story is a promotion. Maybe people bought the novel, and want to read more. In that case, my story is a thank you. And writing short stories also keeps the world "fresh"—it might be years, maybe many, many years, until I write the second novel in my Heinrich Strauss series, but I can write stories every so often to keep it alive.

Personally, I'm a pretty verbose writer, and I find short stories challenging. Something To Eat was originally supposed to be 4000 words, then it crept to 4500, then 5000, etc. But it's a challenge that I like, because it does force me to focus on economy of words. I believe writing short stories (I've written may a dozen or so over the years) have helped make me a better writer, without a doubt.

Orren