22 replies to this topic

[thealtruismsociety]

When using then is there a space between them and the word or not?

word--word vs word -- word

word...word vs word ... word

[Marguerite]

No for em-dashes. Yes for ellipses.

word—word but word ... word.

I don't think you ever see this in fiction, but in a quotation there may be four dots (period marking end of sentence plus ellipsis indicating words left out). In that case there is a space following the four dots but not one before, as in word.... And new sentence.
Best,
M

[thealtruismsociety]

Thanks!

[Thoth]

The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition.

Worth the investment.

-T

[thealtruismsociety]

Yeah I'll grab it when I can, been jobless over two years. This is the example I had:

“You act like none of...” Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger. "...of this is amazing."

So he breaks his speech to gesture around him. There really isn't any words missing.

[Marguerite]

Dang, has Chicago produced another edition?! I already have two nice doorstops in the 14th and 15th!

TAS, honest, in the case you mention, I am not sure you need the space. People use it mostly to make the ellipsis visible. When it is set off on just one side, most of us don't bother. Why not leave it as you have it? I swear, no one will reject your book because of a space, needed or unneeded.
Best, and thanks for the warning, Thoth,
M

[Thoth]

thealtruismsociety, on 17 April 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

Yeah I'll grab it when I can, been jobless over two years.

Sorry. Apologies.

thealtruismsociety, on 17 April 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

This is the example I had:
“You act like none of...” Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger. "...of this is amazing."
So he breaks his speech to gesture around him. There really isn't any words missing.

I'd go with:
“You act like none of,” Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger, "like none of this is amazing."

But that's just me.
-T

[TexasRunner]

Thoth, on 17 April 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

Sorry. Apologies.


I'd go with:
“You act like none of,” Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger, "like none of this is amazing."

But that's just me.
-T

Jumping into the conversation here. My understanding is that the appropriate use of ellipsis marks is a space before and after the three dots and space between each. And, of course, a period at the end if it is at the end of the sentence. "You act like none of . . . " Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger. " . . . like none of this is amazing." At least, that's how it's been for years and Grammar Girl backs me up. (How's that for a reference?)
-TR

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 17 April 2011 - 11:42 PM, said:

Dang, has Chicago produced another edition?! I already have two nice doorstops in the 14th and 15th!

The old editions make nice barbecue pit starters too. Add mesquite shavings for a nice smokey flavor that's grammatically correct.

But seriously, new additions to the CMS include:
1) an expanded section on bias-free language (although I typically try to add bias to my dialog),
2) an electronic-editing checklist (are there still people who don't edit electronically?),
3) guidelines for e-publishing (a must for us Storyists),
4) a new section on parallel structure (go on, click it, I dare you!).

Still put my faith in the CMS, Grammar Girl notwithstanding.
... Thoth

[Marguerite]

TexasRunner, on 19 April 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

Jumping into the conversation here. My understanding is that the appropriate use of ellipsis marks is a space before and after the three dots and space between each. And, of course, a period at the end if it is at the end of the sentence. "You act like none of . . . " Haro gestures at the city beyond with the sharp stab of a finger. " . . . like none of this is amazing." At least, that's how it's been for years and Grammar Girl backs me up. (How's that for a reference?)
-TR

Grammar Girl is correct, although in practice the publisher decides how to render ellipses. I don't think the exact format matters in a submission, so long as it's clear.

Just to confuse TAS a bit more, I actually wouldn't use ellipses at all in the example he gave, because Haro's speech is not trailing off. I would use Thoth's formulation with commas. Or more likely, I would rewrite the sentence and put the gesture at the end.

Thoth, thanks for the rundown on the 16th ed. of CMS. I'm sure I'll get stuck buying it eventually.... Sir Percy will love having the 14th and 15th eds. to produce grammatically correct ribs.

TAS, I think there is an online edition of the CMS. You might check, although if it requires a subscription, that's not much help.
Best,
Marguerite

[thealtruismsociety]

Haro breaks from his sentence to gesture around him--he doesn't gesture while talking.

[thealtruismsociety]

Marguerite, on 19 April 2011 - 08:53 PM, said:

Grammar Girl is correct, although in practice the publisher decides how to render ellipses. I don't think the exact format matters in a submission, so long as it's clear.

Just to confuse TAS a bit more, I actually wouldn't use ellipses at all in the example he gave, because Haro's speech is not trailing off. I would use Thoth's formulation with commas. Or more likely, I would rewrite the sentence and put the gesture at the end.

Thoth, thanks for the rundown on the 16th ed. of CMS. I'm sure I'll get stuck buying it eventually.... Sir Percy will love having the 14th and 15th eds. to produce grammatically correct ribs.

TAS, I think there is an online edition of the CMS. You might check, although if it requires a subscription, that's not much help.
Best,
Marguerite

It does indeed require a subscription. Thanks though.

[thealtruismsociety]

Another question, involving ... questions.

If I have a character say - “So now there’s two hallways,” Haro asks.

Because I have the Haro asks, do I still put a ? in the quotes or the comma?

This novel has a lot off characters so it seem to me a good idea to really note who is talking most of the time.

Thanks.

[Thoth]

thealtruismsociety, on 23 April 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Another question, involving ... questions.

How very meta. Ask away.

thealtruismsociety, on 23 April 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

If I have a character say - “So now there’s two hallways,” Haro asks.
Because I have the Haro asks, do I still put a ? in the quotes or the comma?

No, you don't. But I'd write: “So now there’re two hallways,” Haro asks.
"There are two", not "There is two", unless this is a character-specific dialect thing.

thealtruismsociety, on 23 April 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

This novel has a lot off characters so it seem to me a good idea to really note who is talking most of the time.

I feel the same way.
- Thoth

[Marguerite]

Thoth, on 23 April 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

No, you don't. But I'd write: “So now there’re two hallways,” Haro asks.
"There are two", not "There is two", unless this is a character-specific dialect thing.
- Thoth

No question mark, really? See the example from Chicago (6.75, p. 260): The ambassador asked, "Has the Marine Corps been alerted?"

I can see the argument: if he asks, we know it's a question. But I'd heard only that "asks" is one of the acceptable variants for "said" (acceptable in the sense that it doesn't distract the reader), not that if you used it, you should drop the question mark. Where does that come from?
Curious,
M

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 24 April 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

No question mark, really? See the example from Chicago (6.75, p. 260): The ambassador asked, "Has the Marine Corps been alerted?"

I can see the argument: if he asks, we know it's a question. But I'd heard only that "asks" is one of the acceptable variants for "said" (acceptable in the sense that it doesn't distract the reader), not that if you used it, you should drop the question mark. Where does that come from?
Curious,
M

Hello Curious M.

The CMS citation (6.75, p. 260) says,

Quote

With quotation marks, parentheses, or brackets. A question mark should be placed inside quotation marks, parentheses, or brackets only when it is part of the quoted or parenthetical matter.

This does not sound to me like leaving out the question mark entirely is excluded. Rather, it seem to me that, if you are using a question mark, this is how to position it. Indeed, the CMS does recognize that question marks can be eliminated for indirect questions (6.72, 6.73) and courtesy questions (6.74). But I could not find a CMS reference for TAZ's example. (Does the emoticon go before or after the period?)

So I guess you win, M.
Penitently flogging self.
- Thoth

[Marguerite]

Although I just found this example from Lolita in another writing book, so perhaps there is flexibility on this question: "Pulease, leave me alone, will you," you would say. (The misspelling of "please" is deliberate, to capture Lolita's teenage disdain.)

If Nabokov could get away with no question mark, I think lesser mortals must be allowed.

So stop flogging yourself, Thoth, and accept this penitential overmuffin instead.
M

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 25 April 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

Although I just found this example from Lolita in another writing book, so perhaps there is flexibility on this question: "Pulease, leave me alone, will you," you would say. (The misspelling of "please" is deliberate, to capture Lolita's teenage disdain.)

Once again, you are too kind. (Who would have guessed; Lolita to the rescue. Professor Humbert Humbert would be thrilled.)

Marguerite, on 25 April 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

If Nabokov could get away with no question mark, I think lesser mortals must be allowed.

I agree but clearly it's not canon (so to speak). I'm going to look for more examples to assuage my conscience. I hate giving advice (to TAZ or anyone) if I'm not sure.

Marguerite, on 25 April 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

So stop flogging yourself, Thoth, and accept this penitential overmuffin instead.

Mmmm. Penitential overmuffins. Yum!
- Prof. Thoth Thoth.

[Marguerite]

Thoth, on 25 April 2011 - 01:36 AM, said:

I agree but clearly it's not canon (so to speak). I'm going to look for more examples to assuage my conscience. I hate giving advice (to TAZ or anyone) if I'm not sure.
- Prof. Thoth Thoth.

Do let us know what you find out. I asked because I was wondering if I should change my style, not because I knew the answer.
Cheers,
M

[Thoth]

Marguerite, on 25 April 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

Do let us know what you find out. I asked because I was wondering if I should change my style, not because I knew the answer.
Cheers,
M

Okay, I've looked around.
It was fairly easy to find examples in writing, including instances where leaving out the question mark was an obvious mistake, but I could not find any official sanction for TAS' example.

That said, you can still leave out question marks in courtesy questions (e.g., "Would the audience please rise.") and indirect questions (e.g., "He wondered whether it was worth the risk."), just not in sentences where the question mark is redundant (e.g., "No question mark?" asked M.).

I spoke to a High School English teacher about this. She told me that, historically, the use of punctuation was primarily to assist with cadence for those reading out loud rather than to themselves. If there are no "question words" (e.g., "Why no question mark?" asked M.) at the beginning of the sentence then how is the speaker to know to give the proper inflection to the last word. With all due respect, I suspect this is a specious answer. Anyone have a better idea why we need redundant indications of a question?

M, don't be too quick to change your style.
Maybe we should change the name of this thread to "Dashes, ellipses and question marks."
- Thoth