28 replies to this topic

[thealtruismsociety]

What are the market for them?

[Joolissa]

I'm not really sure, but I'd be interested in finding out as well.

[Thoth]

For what it's worth, click here.

-Thoth

[Isaac]

Thoth, on Apr 22 2010, 03:51 PM, said:

For what it's worth, click here.

For some reason, that made me feel depressed.

IF

[Thoth]

Isaac, on Apr 23 2010, 12:48 AM, said:

For some reason, that made me feel depressed.

Yeah. Me too, for some reason.
- T

[Joolissa]

Why specifically does it depress you? Is it that different from trying to break into the market of any other type of writing? It seems to me that you could replace the words "short story" in most of that article with "poetry" or "novel" and it would still apply.

Basically, it seems like no matter what you write you have to research the market, find out what your target market is publishing and what they want, write very well or at least write something that'll be popular (I'm thinking Twilight), and then... manage to get the attention of someone who will publish your work, be it agent, magazine, publisher, etc. etc, with the last part being the crucial part because lots of nonsense gets published.

Am I missing something?
- J

[Thoth]

Julia Grace, on Apr 23 2010, 06:23 PM, said:

...Am I missing something?
- J

You're missing nothing J. From the base of the mountain the peak always looks daunting.
- T

[Isaac]

Julia Grace, on Apr 23 2010, 04:23 PM, said:

Why specifically does it depress you?

It's like when I inherit some legacy code base from hell. A daunting project.

Most of selling a sort story or a book seems to be about self marketing. The "research" part of it is really just having to learn a field unrelated to what you're good at. The problem is, there are a lot of people who are naturally good at self marketing who aren't necessarily good at anything else, including writing. Let's face it. Most of the books on the shelves of the stores are not really very good. You can write the next Twilight or Ender's Game and never get noticed if you are not a good self marketer.

IF

[Joolissa]

Ah... daunting.. yes.. I understand. It is quite the daunting prospect.

I must say..... I don't know about putting Ender's Game and Twilight in the same sentence though. I have to finish the Ender series. The person I was borrowing them from was missing one in the middle of the series, so I haven't gotten a chance to finish it yet.

I agree about the marketing part. In the photography industry, there are a lot of terrible photographers out there making money over the really good photographers who just don't know how or have the capability to market as well. It's probably the same in any industry really.

- J

[thealtruismsociety]

Isaac, on Apr 23 2010, 08:35 PM, said:

It's like when I inherit some legacy code base from hell. A daunting project.

Most of selling a sort story or a book seems to be about self marketing. The "research" part of it is really just having to learn a field unrelated to what you're good at. The problem is, there are a lot of people who are naturally good at self marketing who aren't necessarily good at anything else, including writing. Let's face it. Most of the books on the shelves of the stores are not really very good. You can write the next Twilight or Ender's Game and never get noticed if you are not a good self marketer.

IF

From what I read about Twilight, the woman didn't market herself whatsoever and the book was picked up by accident almost, is this not correct?

[Isaac]

Julia Grace, on Apr 24 2010, 11:01 AM, said:

I must say..... I don't know about putting Ender's Game and Twilight in the same sentence though.

I was just trying to cover a broad spectrum of fiction in a short example. ;-)

I've only read Ender's Game (recently). Haven't started anything else in the series yet.

IF

[Orren]

Thoth, on Apr 22 2010, 02:51 PM, said:

For what it's worth, click here.

-Thoth

But that's a three-year old article. Everything is different now! All you need to do is think of a short story, and the major magazines will rush to publish it! Before it's even committed to text!

Seriously, I'm with Jools on this one--there's nothing in that article that should be the slightest bit daunting. If someone is a great writer, with a great story, and puts it and themselves out there, it stands as good a chance as any other unknown great writer's great story. This has always been an extremely competitive and difficult business to get into; that it's the same for short stories is nothing new.

OTOH, for folks who didn't realize that short stories weren't just "mini-novels" I think the technical information here might have been a good start for people.

Julia Grace, on Apr 24 2010, 10:01 AM, said:

I must say..... I don't know about putting Ender's Game and Twilight in the same sentence though.

FWIW, the authors' politics are similar. Not that Isaak was thinking of that.

Orren

[Thoth]

Orren, on Apr 25 2010, 11:12 PM, said:

But that's a three-year old article. Everything is different now! All you need to do is think of a short story, and the major magazines will rush to publish it! Before it's even committed to text!

Of course ***slaps forehead*** What was I thinking?

Orren, on Apr 25 2010, 11:12 PM, said:

Seriously, I'm with Jools on this one--there's nothing in that article that should be the slightest bit daunting. If someone is a great writer, with a great story, and puts it and themselves out there, it stands as good a chance as any other unknown great writer's great story. This has always been an extremely competitive and difficult business to get into; that it's the same for short stories is nothing new.

I admire your self-confidence. But let us look at that sentence for a moment: "If someone is a great writer, with a great story, and puts it and themselves out there, it stands as good a chance as any other unknown great writer's great story." So how does one know they are a great writer with a great story before they hit the Best Seller's List? And just how do you calculate the chances of that? What percentage of unknown great writers with great stories never get published? I suppose "tis no knowin' but t'doin'". (I forgot who said that.)

Orren, on Apr 25 2010, 11:12 PM, said:

OTOH, for folks who didn't realize that short stories weren't just "mini-novels" I think the technical information here might have been a good start for people.

I agree.

Orren, on Apr 25 2010, 11:12 PM, said:

FWIW, the authors' politics are similar. Not that Isaak was thinking of that.

I don't know this Ender's series. Are you (Orren) and you (Isaac) recommending it? (I'm looking for a good laundry paperback.)
- Thoth

[Isaac]

Thoth, on Apr 25 2010, 10:12 PM, said:

I admire your self-confidence. But let us look at that sentence for a moment: "If someone is a great writer, with a great story, and puts it and themselves out there, it stands as good a chance as any other unknown great writer's great story." So how does one know they are a great writer with a great story before they hit the Best Seller's List? And just how do you calculate the chances of that? What percentage of unknown great writers with great stories never get published? I suppose "tis no knowin'
but t'doin'". (I forgot who said that.)

I know I'm great and I've never published anything.

Thoth, on Apr 25 2010, 10:12 PM, said:

I don't know this Ender's series. Are you (Orren) and you (Isaac) recommending it? (I'm looking for a good laundry paperback.)

Ender's Game is a quick read. You'd probably like it.

IF

[Thoth]

Isaac, on Apr 26 2010, 12:22 AM, said:

I know I'm great and I've never published anything.

I'm beginning to see your point.

Isaac, on Apr 26 2010, 12:22 AM, said:

Ender's Game is a quick read. You'd probably like it.

On the strength of that sparkling recommendation (and a few reviews) I just placed an order on Amazon for the box set.
-Thoth

[Orren]

Thoth, on Apr 25 2010, 09:12 PM, said:

I admire your self-confidence. But let us look at that sentence for a moment: "If someone is a great writer, with a great story, and puts it and themselves out there, it stands as good a chance as any other unknown great writer's great story." So how does one know they are a great writer with a great story before they hit the Best Seller's List?

I'm a child of the punk rock movement. That means that these two ideas are in my DNA:

• With practice, anyone can be great. It's not a genetic gift or elite club.
  
• Hitting the jackpot (in this case, best seller list) does not equal "great." It just equals rich.

So yes, I have confidence in my writing. But it's not because I was touched by the hand of God. It's because I wrote my first short story when I was 11 years old, and I am currently shopping one I wrote just a month ago, after I turned 40. I have 29 years as a writer under my belt, including 9 years writing published articles and 7 years writing published books (all non-fiction). I've learned how to write. I'll admit that I had a head start—my father was a writer, and my grandfather was a professor (religious studies) who wrote his own textbooks. So I saw people writing and hand great advice early. But I think time and practice is what has helped me far more than my birthright.

As for the Best Seller's list, there's a whole lot of poorly written books on it. Hell, Stephanie Meyer ("Twilight" series) is a terrible writer! Seriously, as a high school English teacher, if she was in my class, I would have sent her paper back to her with a swath of red ink, telling her that she has to cut down on the adverbs something fierce (in her books, "slowly the man silently crept sneakily into the room stealthily..."). But she had a story and characters that captured the imagination of her YA audience, and of course having them made into super-mega-hit movies does a lot for book sales too. And she's not the only one—lots of books that for one reason or another hook the mainstream and become very commercially successful but are far from the most skillfully written works.

That gets to the whole issue of what you are trying to do—art or commerce. Ideally, great art is commercial. But usually, great art isn't the most commercial. In the music world, Radiohead is a fantastic rock group. They are highly successful. However, they are not nearly as successful as Brittany Spears or Lady Gaga, who have carefully crafted songs and images designed to hook the mainstream.

So when I talk about great writing "getting published" I am not talking about "becoming a Best Seller." I talking about having a body of published work, which doesn't mean selling 100,000+ books per year.

Quote

I don't know this Ender's series. Are you (Orren) and you (Isaac) recommending it?

My wife read the first one (Enders Game) and really enjoyed it.

Orren

[Thoth]

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 01:06 AM, said:

I'm a child of the punk rock movement. That means that these two ideas are in my DNA:

• With practice, anyone can be great. It's not a genetic gift or elite club.
  
• Hitting the jackpot (in this case, best seller list) does not equal "great." It just equals rich.

I'm a child of the free love movement. That means that these two ideas are in my early programming:

• Don't trust The Man,
  
• The "jackpot" is happiness and self-fulfillment. (My own career path notwithstanding.)

"With practice, anyone can be great," is a lovely sentiment but I think we both know that it isn't true. Drive is very important but so is actual talent and luck. There are millions of kids out there who practice their sport religiously, thinking they'll turn professional for a few years and retire young. The vast majority will never be great (however you define "great") and will never be professional athletes. Some mediocre players will just get lucky. And some truly great players with a natural gift for the sport simply don't have the drive to refine their game. (I think a parallel analogy can be made for "beauty queens marrying millionaires.)

"Hitting the jackpot" doesn't mean money or sales. "Great" means "having a body of published work". I think that's nice but a rather diluted (diluted, not deluded) notion of "great." Perhaps you are unaware that there are many authors recognized as great who have but one novel under their belt. Consider:

• Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
  
• Margaret Mitchell - Gone With the Wind
  
• Emily Bronte - Wuthering Heights
  
• Sylvia Plath - The Bell Jar
  
• Boris Pasternak - Dr Zhivago (And it won him the 1958 Nobel Prize for Literature, but he declined it.)
  
• Anna Sewell - Black Beauty (She started BB at age 51. It took her 6 years.)
  
• Arundhati Roy - The God of Small Things (Rumors are she is working on a second novel.)
  
  If pressed I could add three more to the one-novel Greats to round out the sum to an even ten:
  
• J.D.Salinger - Catcher in the Rye (His other works were short stories and magazine articles.)
  
• Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray (Surprised? All his other works were plays, poetry and short stories.)
  
• John Kennedy Toole - A Confederacy of Dunces (Okay, he wrote two. But he wrote The Neon Bible as a teenager.)

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 01:06 AM, said:

My wife read the first one (Enders Game) and really enjoyed it.

Obviously a woman of impeccable taste. Please thank her for me.
- Thoth.

[Orren]

Thoth, on Apr 25 2010, 11:15 PM, said:

I'm a child of the free love movement.

Ah, but I was born in 1970, so I may literally be a child of the free love movement!

Quote

With practice, anyone can be great," is a lovely sentiment but I think we both know that it isn't true. Drive is very important but so is actual talent and luck.

I guess it depends what you are talking about. I was specifically referring to writing and music. I agree that you can't become a great athlete, etc just with practice. But you can for many other things. You can learn to be a great accountant, musician, landscaper, and I'd even say writer. Remember that "great" doesn't have to be "an example of human perfection" it can just be exceptionally good. Musical Example: AC/DC has been writing "workmanlike" rock and roll for some 40 years. People sometimes joke they've been writing the same song for 40 years. But the fact is, both fans and rock critics consider them a great band. They aren't Led Zeppelin, a group who has written some of the most transcendent rock songs ever composed, but that doesn't mean AC/DC themselves haven't achieved greatness. And in AC/DC's case, it came from hard work, lots of practice, building up their songwriting chops, and continually improving their formula to the point that they could write some classic tracks.

Not every field may fall into the "with practice, anyone can be great" category, but I think that music and writing are two such fields.

Quote

Perhaps you are unaware that there are many authors recognized as great who have but one novel under their belt.

Of that list, I'd only heard of Harper Lee (my secret is out, I'm the worst read English grad student around. Why? My BA was in psychology, not English. And in grad work, your reading is narrowed to works in your field, British Romantic and Gothic lit in my case. For the record, I disliked the output of both Brontes, although I guess they'd fall under Gothic literature. I much prefer Ann Radcliffe).

Anyway, you're right, one work is enough. But my main point was not to develop a universally accepted definition of great writing, but to suggest that it's unrelated to the Best Sellers list. I see no reason why, if To Kill A Mockingbird had been written in 2010 and released as a free ePub on Harper Lee's website, it would not also be great! My basic point that sales does not determine greatness stands.

Orren

[Thoth]

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

Ah, but I was born in 1970, so I may literally be a child of the free love movement!

Well, I was born in 1954 so ... MY SON!

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

I guess it depends what you are talking about. I was specifically referring to writing and music. I agree that you can't become a great athlete, etc just with practice. But you can for many other things.

I'm not so sure I can accept your premise. You can get good with practice, probably, even "exceptionally good", but since when is exceptionally good equated with great? That's why I said that your notion of great was "diluted". So both fans and rock critics consider AC/DC a "great band" even though they think "they've been writing the same song for the last 40 years". This is a concept of great similar to saying my toaster makes great toast. It's an unconvincing argument and I think the punk rock movement had it wrong: great is elite, pretty much by definition (unless you mean "great" as in "large"). I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on this point.

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

You can learn to be a great accountant, musician, landscaper, and I'd even say writer...

I think you've just insulted a great many accountants, musicians, landscapers, and dare I say it, writers. I think what you may have meant to say is that you can learn to be proficient at, for example, accounting. But my own accountant claims that truly great accountants are born, not made. He believes that you must grow up with an imaginative facility for categorizing if you want to be a great accountant. Great accountants think outside the box. They are not merely proficient, not merely practiced, at their professions. And I can't even tell you how many times I've heard people say that you can't teach writing. You can learn the fundamentals and practice until your eyes bleed but it can still come to nothing. There has to be that spark. There has to be an imaginative facility for telling a story. Otherwise all the practice in the world cannot make you great, or even good, much less exceptionally good.

By the way, the same goes for landscapers. There are artists and there are craftsmen. Big difference.

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

Not every field may fall into the "with practice, anyone can be great" category, but I think that music and writing are two such fields.

A field would have to be utterly simplistic to fall into that category. (Something like Professional Tic-Tac-Toe player.) If the preceding paragraph hasn't convince you then I don't know what will.

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

Of that list, I'd only heard of Harper Lee (my secret is out, I'm the worst read English grad student around. Why? My BA was in psychology, not English. And in grad work, your reading is narrowed to works in your field, British Romantic and Gothic lit in my case. For the record, I disliked the output of both Brontes, although I guess they'd fall under Gothic literature. I much prefer Ann Radcliffe.

Sorry Orren, but a BA in psychology is no excuse for laziness, my old son. My degrees (B.S., M.S., Ph.D) are all in science and I consider myself pretty well read in fiction. You just have to make the time.

Orren, on Apr 26 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

Anyway, you're right, one work is enough. But my main point was not to develop a universally accepted definition of great writing, but to suggest that it's unrelated to the Best Sellers list. I see no reason why, if To Kill A Mockingbird had been written in 2010 and released as a free ePub on Harper Lee's website, it would not also be great! My basic point that sales does not determine greatness stands.

No reason at all. My question: "So how does one know they are a great writer with a great story before they hit the Best Seller's List?" was not meant to establish the Best Seller's List as proof of greatness so much as to ask how a first-time novelist can know he's great. Practice (and other things) might make you great but how would you know it? Then you went off on your tangent and I followed. (I love following tangents, cosines too.)

My subsequent point was that "great", as in "great writer", already has a definition. It has synonyms too: prominent, eminent, important, distinguished, illustrious, celebrated, honored, acclaimed, admired, esteemed, revered, renowned, notable, famous, famed, well-known; leading, top, major, principal, first-rate, matchless, peerless, star.

I feel that you belittle the term by claiming anyone can become great with enough practice. It's like walking into a High School auditorium and telling the students that if they just study hard enough they can all become president. A nice lie but a lie nonetheless.
- Thoth

[Orren]

Thoth, on Apr 26 2010, 01:59 AM, said:

I'm not so sure I can accept your premise...I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on this point.

Fair enough.

Quote

I think you've just insulted a great many accountants

I wouldn't be the first!

Quote

If the preceding paragraph hasn't convince you then I don't know what will.

It doesn't, and nothing will. I absolutely refuse to believe in genetic superiority of any kind, including genetic superiority in one specific field. We can have advantages in upbringing, more money, more opportunity, more education, whathaveyou, but I believe that one of the truly "superior" things about the human species is that given equal opportunity we can all achieve.

Quote

My question: "So how does one know they are a great writer with a great story before they hit the Best Seller's List?" was not meant to establish the Best Seller's List as proof of greatness so much as to ask how a first-time novelist can know he's great.

To some degree, that depends on self-esteem. You can sell all the books in the world, get great reviews, be hailed as a great writer, and still believe that you are a hack, and that the people simply haven't caught on that you're talentless. Welcome to psychology!

Quote

I feel that you belittle the term by claiming anyone can become great with enough practice.

Practice, drive, research, and creativity (and I firmly believe creativity is imbued in everyone, they just need to learn to tap it). I don't feel that belittles greatness at all. It lauds them for a lifetime of single-minded determination, a will to achieve, and the fruits of their efforts. I do however it belittles the human race to say "you can be great, you cannot"...and in fact, that can be (doesn't have to be, but can be) one step on a slippery slope to eugenics.

First society says that these people are great in one thing (say, writing), because they were born that way, and these people can never be great in writing, because they were not born that way. Later, someone says that those people not great in writing are not great in these other things either, because they weren't born great in these things. From there, its not too far a leap to keep them out of various jobs, to not let them interbreed with "genetically superior" people, to put them into separate communities, and so on. Yes, this is either science fiction or 1940s Germany, depending how you want to look at it. And maybe because my family suffered horrible losses at the hands of the "master race" (my grandfather was a survivor of Sachenhausen) I'm a bit oversensitive to any sort of claims of "innate superiority" be it related to ethnicity or ability.

So to bring this back to the original post: TAS go right ahead and market any short stories you write. Don't get hung up on if you were born to be a great writer or not—if you put in the efforts, you can be as good as anyone out there!

Orren